Controversy
Controversy
I’ve been hibernating somewhat. In the burst of content creation, I have barely had time nor energy to come up for a breath and consume anything as of late. My personal finance reading has dwindled considerably. This is a necessary evil of creation. It is hard to both consume and produce at the same time. Yet, I haven’t been totally immune to the controversy swirling this last week.
There is always controversy. Whenever you have people together in the same space with strong opinions, there is bound to be disagreement. Though I can’t help but be saddened just a little at the same time.
Going Political
I naively felt like the financial independence community was apolitical. I know. How silly was I. It seemed so much easier to think that we were dealing with cold hard facts. Numbers are numbers? Right? Formulas and spreadsheets make even speculation feel certain. The less wiggle room the better.
The less space for controversy.
Yet platforms are a funny thing. They give us the audience to talk about anything and everything. Personal judgement dictates that which we share. Personal judgement, however, is exactly that. Extremely personal. What is acceptable or free speech to one is hate and prejudice to another.
It was all so easy and straightforward when is was about debating the 4% safe withdrawal rate. Or haggling over traditional verse Roth.
Fallout
I see much fallout. I see people blocking each other. Shutting down websites and pulling the plug on podcasts. I see people on both sides of the divide, people who I have grown to love and respect, pitted against one another with fists raised high.
Some would say that controversy is necessary fodder for growth. That all creation requires a certain element of destruction. I can’t argue with these principles yet grow weary of watching them take place all around me.
No matter which side prevails, I can’t help but think that people I am fond of will be hurt.
Are hurt already.
Our World
I’m not sure if this says something greater about the state of the world in which we live in. Or if the personal finance community has just become big enough that controversy, deep personal disagreeing, is just inevitable.
I hope we find a way to do this with the civility and class that this community has maintained to this point. To both spout off ideas and be rebuked in powerful yet non destructive ways.
I’m not sure it is possible. Especially when the topic runs deep. When the specter of racism or sexism or ageism rears it’s head.
These are weighty subjects. Subjects our countries and communities as a whole are struggling with.
Final Thoughts
I have no wish to support or condemn anyone today. And that in itself may lead to a lose of credibility. I accept that risk. But I will mourn the controversy taking place in our community, and in the world as a whole.
Maybe I really have had my head in the sand.
Either way, sending out love.
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This seems heartfelt but I am honestly confused because I do not know what you are talking about? You mention not wanting to support or condemn anyone and not wanting to be political but about what? You mentioned that you have been creating a lot of content and reading less lately but I have been reading a load of content lately while creating as well and I feel more out of the loop than you? I may be naive or uninformed because I am newer to this community but have only seen good ideas and support so far?
http://freedomisgroovy.com/the-alt-fi-manifesto/
http://www.optimizeyourlife.co/a-response-to-a-manifesto/
https://www.zerodayfinance.com/response-to-the-alt-fi-manifesto
https://freddysmidlap.com/2019/02/25/be-your-own-arbiter-diy-opinions/
oh man, that’s a shame, FI innocence lost for me. I’m not really that into politics because I am not a sports fan so I don’t think I’ll bite on any of this. I am, however, interested in living our best lives with financial independence.
I think we are real human beings with real passions. There are really good people on both side of the divide regardless of what the rhetoric seems to imply.
This is a perfect post. We need more of the non- judgment , non -condemning , non-bias posts to be out there and seen. We all have opinions. And we all have some bias. It’s unavoidable. Our own judgements will always find a way to hit us in the face . It’s a good thing. We are all on our unique journeys . No one can fully understand what it is like to walk in your shoes. And why would you want to put on someone else’s shoes, anyway. …………………………………………….Love is always the best answer ! Always!
I’m even fine with judgement and rustled feathers. I just think we need to learn how to work through them productively so that we end in a better place. Not a worse.
Very realistic perspective. I appreciate your honesty.
I’m feeling that everything we do is a judgement, even non- judgement. Inevitably feathers are rustled.
Don’t believe we can avoid this, nor should we. But, I believe it is all to move us all to a better place.
What we have now, this clashing , harming, and hatred of one another, it has to change.
What I can’t stand is when people lack empathy and perspective that makes them fail to realize that not everyone has walked in the same shoes they have. The mantra of “picking yourself up by your bootstraps” is ludicrous when some people don’t have and can’t afford boots.
Assuming everyone has the same opportunity lacks intelligent thought and introspection. More importantly, it lacks a desire to help others and to see things from their point of view. It’s a game of selfish motivation and gain.
I’ve stayed out of this one, too, but honestly because I’ve been busy creating content and didn’t catch wind of it until yesterday. I haven’t had time to process my thoughts or had a desire to create a response that would be helpful.
I don’t mind differeing opinions, but I do mind uneducated and thoughtless opinions that are created by the brainwashed political environment in which our country currently resides (on both the left and the right).
Thanks for the thoughtful post, Doc G.
I think more empathy and understanding are always warranted.
I wasn’t aware of this controversy either until I read your post. Followed the link and read most of the “Alt-Fi Manifesto” (spoiler: it is most political than financial). I appreciate your thoughtful reaction far more than the content of the controversy.
When we identify with a group we overestimate our commonalities. When differences are revealed – especially differences in fundamental values – it challenges the cohesion of our tribe, even our identity. It’s destabilizing, threatening.
Being new here, I’m happy to see that you seem to value kindness, community, and the principle of openness more than the rigid adherence to one point of view. It’s a challenging perspective to maintain but you’re not alone.
Right on the mark:
When we identify with a group we overestimate our commonalities. When differences are revealed – especially differences in fundamental values – it challenges the cohesion of our tribe, even our identity. It’s destabilizing, threatening.
i like dissent. i generally like to keep it lighter until i feel like independent thought and judgement is threatened or discouraged. we’re about to see “lord of the flies-like” devolution when the sides are all chosen. i wouldn’t join any club that would have me as a member.
I hope we don’t devolve too far.
“No matter which side prevails, I can’t help but think that people I am fond of will be hurt.”
That’s the problem in our country, we’ve gamified discourse into a sporting match with the false assumption that there’s a “winner” or a side that “prevails”. That narrative flies directly in the face of the nuanced reality of the world, which should be deliberated with honest and non-assuming conversation, civil discourse, and free speech.
Our country has picked two teams and is watching a scoreboard. It’s toxic.
You nailed it.
Differences of opinion result from differences in values. Unless we get to know the other side, we’re all losers.
Yes. Much nuance.
There is a process in psych circles called group process. Group process doesn’t exist just in “psych groups” but in any group including and maybe especially blogoland. People bring their agendas and in blogoland there is no social normative feed back or retribution or consequence for out sized opinions, and there is manipulation and bullying as well. 1 in 4 teen suicides is internet related so the manipulation of “reality” is not trivial. FIRE is a hobby, played with real money using this imperfect and manipulative social networking. People make extravagant unproven or poorly conceived claims based on scant evidence of success, but the rap has a good beat, and is easy to dance too. People sell books based on their rap. People are interviewed based on their rap. But it’s still just a rap. One thing is about rap, you add the letter C and it become crap. Sometimes it amazes me how people get SOOO invested in their rap they forget to take it with a grain of salt, and I think it’s that over investment in the fantasy of FIRE that leads to conflict. People refuse to have their rap challenged because of the threat that poses to their psyche and empire and discussion becomes fighting words. When your whole future is at stake and you bought a boat load of crap, so you can retire at 30 it’s a psychologically untenable place to be when reality breaks through and you realize your rap is not going to support you for 60 more years. Reality hoses up your narrative. If you go back and look a Suze O she did exactly this. She shined a light on how lame the narrative really is and people lost their minds and started repeating to themselves REPEATEDLY the rap until the dissonance went away. 2 dozen “famous bloggers” took it upon themselves to slay the Suzie O dragon. Even Paula Pound at the end of the interview was so distraught she had to spew her rap to relieve her tension at being challenged and went into some diatribe about her real estate empire. So those are the real group dynamics. A bunch of people that have “purchased” a narrative future with their retirement portfolio and have staked their entire future and their families future on the veracity of the narrative. What I find interesting is people never challenge the narrative. What I find interesting is how when others are offered the narrative (YOU TOO CAN RETIRE EARLY!!!) and the others reject the rap as being too kooky to be a choice for them, the rappers grumble about the lack of insight of the rap rejection. Pop some popcorn and enjoy the spectacle because this is either going to work or it isn’t, and much of it’s success is based on “extrinsics” that exist beyond the rap like GDP and currency stability and rule of law and war. The raps and rap adherents are like a fleas riding on the back of a dog. They factionalize and mobilize and become tribal and feudal. In the end however the fleas go where the dog goes, period. It doesn’t matter how cool or smart the flea is with his narrative the dog is the ultimate motor. If you want to get somewhere above all guard the dog.
Kind of like the tail wagging the dog.
When saying something like this “YOU TOO CAN RETIRE EARLY!!!”, it’s important to also say something like this: “YOU CAN RETIRE TOO EARLY!!!”
HA! I like that.
I think what Mr. Groovy is pointing out is that there has been a lot of controversial political commentary in the FI community that has already gone unchecked. His post was his attempt to address it from his own point of view. I’m a fan of his blog and he seems open to discussion with people who completely disagree. I felt some people on Twitter were not equally open to discussion and like you say, were then blocking people and so on. They should either comment to his post or ignore it.
But in general, I have really enjoyed the FI community for the positive, inclusive feeling that everybody is welcome. It has generally been a non-political space. Dave from Accidental FIRE said it best on one of his posts. “Kittens die, nuns cry, and unicorns lose their glitter when people argue politics on the internet.”
Yep. I like Dave’s quote too!
As a minority, I was deeply offended by this manifesto. I passed it along to a friend to see if I was just being sensitive, but he too, found it offensive.
This has changed the way I view many people in the FI community. I’m not sure I’ll attend FinCon this year.
While I certainly believe in you and your ability to choose the right path, it would make me sad to think that this is the reason you wouldn’t attend FinCon. I mean, if you really felt what was said was abhorrent, wouldn’t it be a shame if it kept you from not only enjoying something you like to do but also cut you out of this important conversation. Maybe this controversy is exactly why it is important that you come to FinCON. Just my thoughts. I think we all lose if we miss out on important viewpoints like yours.
Now that I have had some time to think about it, I realize I was overreacting. I’ll keep doing my thing!
Definitely keep doing what you do!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Doc! Although I feel that way currently, I may change my mind. I’ll sleep on it some more.