Is the Financial Independence Community Close Minded?
Is The Financial Independence Community Close Minded?
I have found a huge amount of support and enjoyment by interacting with like minded personal 
finance people on social media and within the blogosphere. Unlike the lonely stealth existence of the real world, I can express certain financial opinions without the fear of being shamed or misunderstood. I can’t tell you how many times a commenter on my blog has alluded to the idea that they have finally found their people by engaging in this fantastic community. Yet, as open as we are as a group, I can’t help but feeling that we too have our biases. From time to time, I feel down right ashamed discussing my choices involving money. Is the financial independence community close minded?
This is not a simple question to answer. Especially since I feel such a strong connection to many out there who read and write about personal finance.
But, I wonder, if sometimes we simplify the conversation by pretending that there is only one road that leads to success.
The Frugality Conundrum
A stalwart pillar of financial independence is frugality. If you spend less, you need less. It makes perfect sense, and a whole cottage industry of blogs, how-to manuals, and life hacks abound. Why frugality and financial independence? When you follow the iterations backwards, you eventually come to the idea of living a free, happy, engaged life.
So what if you have plenty of money? Is there really any reason to be frugal anymore? Should you skimp and scrimp if you don’t need to? Is there any virtue in travel hacking if you can easily afford the extra, and don’t want to spend the time and energy juggling credit cards?
Is it ok to work at a job you love, make a million dollars a year, and spend frivolously from time to time because you enjoy it?
I certainly have felt some disparagement for my post about buying a Tesla. There was lots of chatter about lost opportunity costs. But, if we already save greater than fifty percent of our income, does it really matter?
Is the financial independence community close minded outside the halo of frugal living?
Higher Education/Opportunity Cost
By far, the greatest boost to my road to financial independence was my high W2 income. Being a doctor has provided me many opportunities to beef up my salary, engage in lazy side hustles, and stock away 
savings. My first post residency job, I was getting paid in the six figures. This paved the way for a rapid accumulation of assets.
The only reason I was able to vault ahead so quickly is that my family believed in investing in higher education. I went to top ranked, expensive schools, that provided me with the skills and know how to compete for the very best jobs.
There is quite a bit of backlash against higher education and the tuition bill that follows. Many wonder if the traditional path to wealth paved with university learning now leads to a dead-end.
Is the financial independence community close-minded to the idea that sometimes you have to spend money to make money?
Work Optional
My name is Doc G. I am financial independent. And (turns head down with a tear rolling down his cheek) I still go to work everyday.
Listen. Retirement is not for everyone. Many of us enjoy the challenges inherent to professional life. We enjoy problem solving and competing. We even enjoy generating revenue.
There is no shame in making money either post financial independence or after being so-called “retired”. The many discussions of disclosure and what constitutes retirement suggests that we like to draw lines in the sand.
Is the financial independence community close minded about the meaning of retirement? You better bet we are!
In Summary
I call this blog DiverseFI because I want to write and highlight the diversity of our paths to financial independence. My view-point as a high income earner and high spender is going to be completely different from more frugally based writers like Mr. Money Mustache.
There is room for all of us. Frugal and spendthrift, professional and side hustler, PhD and high school graduate.
The richness of this financial independence community is in our variance.
Old habits die hard. The frugality and super saving that leads to financial independence are the same habits that lead one to criticize someone over a “frivolous” purchase. The goal isn’t to be the guy with the most cash at his funeral. Everyone would benefit from a reality check from time to time.
I think that was kinda the point of this post. Maybe a gentle reality check.
I agree there is most definitely room for everyone – low earners, high earners and all those in between. Some decide to us FI to give up work, and others remain working for a myriad of reasons – all acceptable choices!
I totally agree. Many paths to success.
I am more in line with your philosophy (bought a tesla as well and love it) that at a certain point you actually have to spend the money you have accumulated lest your goal is to be the richest person in the graveyard.
I initially was concerned about leaving a great financial legacy to my heirs but after reading that generational wealth is typically lost by the 2nd and 3rd generation I have sort of distanced myself from this.
Why work hard and accumulate a lot of money by being frugal and then have it frittered away by a generation who has no clue about the sacrifices needed to get it
I agree about generational wealth. For my kids, some of their happiness will be figuring it out for themselves. Teach them the skills and ideology instead of giving them the money.
Great post. The Fi community is broad. There are people from every tax bracket. Like you, I first focus on first saving 50% and spend the rest. With the money I spend, I like to get the most value for my money. I don’t necessarily see it as being virtuous, but just how I am wired. It is fun for me to try to find deals.
Spending is also fun. And it’s sometimes OK!
I appreciate this perspective. I come at it from the complete other side of the coin, part personal choice and part what life doled out. I agree…even though I travel hack (I really enjoy it!), I spend money on experiences once at the location. Even though I budget and meal plan, I buy quality food as an investment in my health. I love that we all have different paths and our blog is also about a different way than most. Yes, we live frugally, but we also don’t have fabulous, high-paying jobs or the Master’s degree. And that’s ok for us. I can’t see myself sitting on a beach every day with a cold drink after retirement either. 🙂
Hey Mrs Pocketchange! Great looking blog!
I think frugality is awesome! I just think that for financially responsible people, non frugality is just as good.
Well said.
Perhaps we should place more emphasis on “financial responsibility” rather than “FI-RE”. Like you, I am at a point that I could retire now…but choose to continue to work. I’ve changed *how* I work considerably (I no longer take call, I book my work schedule much more leisurely than I used to), but I enjoy seeing the income arrive, and get satisfaction from the various jobs I do.
I think you hit it on the head. The idea is financial responsibility.
Yes and no. No – because the community seems to be a very generous, open and welcoming one.
Yes – because it takes a certain level of close mindedness. Most people aren’t financially independent, most people don’t have hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars at their disposal. You need to close out a lot of noise and do things differently from most people to achieve those results.
“Is it ok to work at a job you love, make a million dollars a year, and spend frivolously from time to time because you enjoy it?” Sounds OK to me 😛
HH
The duality exists. Both opened and closed at the same time.
Hey DocG,
I see myself as consistently inconsistent when it comes to the so called rules of FI. I never buy used, I don’t even try to get the lowest price on things. I believe if you are going to splurge, get exactly what you want or else you will waste time regretting it. Work or not work after FI- who cares. Some people must really dislike their jobs- we don’t. FI is about the option to make your own choices. That’s it.
“Make your own choices”. That IS it.
FI gives you options. Choices. Sadly, many of my peers have made choices that have them in “chains”. Many of my choices are laughable to others (I drive old, used cars). But those choices have allowed me to do other things that many would consider extravagant.
FI-early is what I encourage . Then, you have choices, as Dr. MB points out. Early FI requires focus. Focus, to some extent, requires close-mindedness.
When someone first realizes that FI is possible, they have to get “close-minded” to get focused enough to make progress. Kind of like starting a diet/exercise program in a group of people who do neither….
FI is definitely about options. This notion that there are “rules” of FI is what leads to some of the closed mind attitude.
Thanks for pointing out the higher education angle. I’ve found the same sort of dislike for higher education from some FI meetups I’ve been to. It seems like the common FI path is do engineering or computer science, make a good income right out of school, and then retire at early 30s.
My wife and I both highly value higher education and don’t regret it one bit, even though it cost us hundreds of thousands in student loans – not to mention the huge practice loan that my wife is getting now to buy her practice. My wife is 31 years old now and has literally never earned an income and has hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt.
It’s just a totally different path – one that I find a lot of the FI community doesn’t understand or thinks is the wrong way to do it.
Yes! I think there is no shame in paying for education. It’s a little more of the long game.
I get a lot of flack for buying (and posting about) my Tesla too! Easy to imagine since it’s a purchase that isn’t necessarily living up to my namesake. But to your point, I do agree that there is room for diverse paths. I just think that the frugality path is much easier for the general public because it’s easier to save money on an average income versus becoming a high income earner to spend more. We are within the top 2% of income earners. So a vast majority of the population can probably relate to frugality a bit more.
Good point. That’s part of why I write this blog. To give a different perspective.
Now I get why you selected “DiverseFI”! I love it. I’d like to think we are more open-minded, and that it’s called “Personal” Finance for a reason.
Yep. It took me all this time to finally verbalize the meaning of the title of my blog
I agree with what Susan said. I can’t judge anyone for being judgey since I’ve had my fair share of those kind of moments. Similarly, I take all advice with a grain of salt. I take what I can apply to my life and move on from an advice that doesn’t serve me.
Well said Tonya. I certainly have had my judgey moments!
Thanks for spotlighting this issue in the PF blogging community. From high income earners to low income earners, there is room for everyone. But different levels of wealth have their unique set of challenges. And everyone has their own opinion. What I’ve realized is there is no one “correct” path to wealth. There are choices and it’s up to each individual to make choices appropriate for their own circumstances.
Freedom of choice is definitely the point. And making those choices responsibly.
1 Financial independence and financial independence narratives are NOT IDENTICAL. I got to financial independence on my own and never read my first FIRE blog (WCI who was interviewing PoF) till I was already 2 months retired. So I have a very different perspective.
2 By and large FIRE blogs are written by wanna bees. They all have read the Bogelhead crowd and wanna be what that crowd uses as it’s narrative. Bogel and Bogelheads are not synonymous. I find the Bogelhead narrative to be a kind of religion, and I find it factionalized like Presbyterians and Baptists are factions. Virtually nobody is actually retired. Everybody is FI but they’re all still working because they love their friggin job or side giggin their patooties off. This is known as narrative. The Bogelhead method is adequate, so I won’t dis it. If you think it’s superior that is your religion talkin.
3 The 35 year old (now 45) high earner cohort who started seeking FIRE in 2008 found it incredibly easy to amass a fortune in 10 years. The 35 year old (now 55) who started seeking FIRE in 1998 using the same tactics is still underwater in comparison. You see a lot of 45 year olds writing FIRE blogs not so much 55 year old bloggers. When you start has everything to do with how successful you are. I wonder how the 35 yo who starts today is going to fare?
4 FI is based on a projection not a reality, which is why people who have “it” still go to work.
5 FIRE blogs are narrative. MMM or GCC have their brands and therefore their livelihoods tied up up in their narrative. You can take it or leave it as long as you understand it’s narrative designed to hook you into clicks. WCI was my first FIRE blog but I never go there because Dahl’s content doesn’t blow my skirt up. I have the same reaction to the other tycoon bloggers. Narratives go to investing, real estate, side gigs etc. I find all of that interesting so I read about it. Narratives to living in poverty not so much, narratives to being master of the universe, color me gone. Narrative, narrative, so many narratives. It’s like the county fair. Do I want the cotton candy or the corn dog or a beer? Corn dog and a beer? hmmmm Definitely not cotton candy.
6 So what’s my gig? Not dying poor. That’s my old retired non side giggin man’s perspective. I’m interested in understanding how to administer a portfolio in a way that I can live comfortably while mitigating risk and failure. I don’t care about owning a Tesla and whether it’s ostentatious or whether it clashes with my “blogs” demeanor. I don’t have a blog and even if I did I would still buy a Tesla if I wanted one. I only have one life and I’ll live it as I please.
My issue with a Tesla is what do you do when the battery craps? I presume this is the reason the lease for a a Tesla is so ridiculous. If I could lease one rationally I’d have one. The lease is basically $1.10 a mile for 20,000 miles over 2 years. How can I run to get a $2 dollar lotto ticket and spend $15 to get it?
I’ve put a lot of time and thought into my narrative. There are themes in my blog. It’s hard to both create a compelling story and message without overselling yourself.
Doc G if it wasn’t for your blog I’d just stay in bed!
Ha! See the ill effects of retirement on the mind?
I retired in 2007 right before the financial crisis. I “lost” 3.5 million in the crisis but have since “made” 10+ million, without a dollar from active income. From my perspective, you need a solid plan and a lot of buffer to be truly FIRE’d. It was mentally difficult to not have any new money to invest during the Great Recession, while maintaining standard of living.
Oh yeh, and most of the FI bloggers that I followed in the 2007 time-frame are all gone. They mostly stopped writing just when things got interesting.
I wonder what their perspectives would be now?
I bet. It’s easy to project when your not living through it.
Gasem, you are a treat to read whether I agree with anything you write or not. In any case, I would also like to not die poor. So count me in!!!
I retired in 2004. I barely used stocks. So many ways to get to the promise land. Those who pontificate about the one and only way have seriously not met Uber wealthy people. These folks do NOT rely on index funds.
But I will index because I have to admit trying to emulate real business folks will just deplete our saved wealth.
In any event Gasem, you must have been a blast in contrast to many of those boring ORs I’ve been in. I am sure many were sad that you retired.
MB I had a lot of fun in the OR, and out that’s for sure! Your comment is very kind. If I ever win that lotto for sure I won’t be calling Vanguard. Goldman Sachs baby!
Preach, Doc G!
I think there are many ways to success and that we each need to find our own. Their is so much grey in this. What is “frugal” for me, may not be “Frugal” at all to you. I don’t regret my higher education one bit, and am glad I did it. I absolutely love my main hustle being an anesthesia doc most days.
You do you, Doc G.
TPP
The education can be essential. Especially for professionals like us. Well worth the upfront cost.
I’m very new to the idea of FI and have not managed money well up to this point in my life, but am excited for all the different ideas within this community. Not all of them work for me, but a lot of them do. What adds value to my life will not be the same for everyone. Was listening this am to an older ChooseFI podcast with JD Collins. He basically said what works for you may not be mathematically optimal, but if it fits into your life and is moving you forward on your FI journey it’s certainly better than stagnating or getting into furhter debt etc.
JL collins is awesome. His stock series is very helpful. Welcome to the community. It’s comfy here.
I actually have a similar post coming out next week, but the gist of it is this: personal finance is “personal”. There are core concepts that bind us together as a community, but not all of us have to totally embrace all of the concepts. We were all drawn to the FIRE community because we have similar ideas about money. That’s great for creating a supportive environment, but not so much for welcoming new and different ideas.
In finance, as with almost everything, what we are looking for is balance. For those of us in the FIRE community that balance tends to be closer to the “save money, be frugal” end of the spectrum when compared to the rest of our society. But the balance point will be different for all of us. How extreme you want to be is a personal decision and no one should be ashamed of where they are on that continuum.
-Ray
The balance point definitely varies from person to person. i look forward to your post. Feel free to come back and link it here when it is up.
Every perspective is welcome and should be encouraged. The people were helping come from every walk of life so the people writing best serve them by also doing so.
Amen. The more perspectives the better.
I think it’s fine. If you have high income and high saving rate, you’re set. You don’t need to be frugal.
There are plenty of high income readers who probably don’t enjoy the frugality narrative. 🙂
I think the narrative is ok. As long as it is just seen as one model.
I don’t see any close mindedness in the community. Other people do, but they are typically the types that purposely go looking for it, and manufacture it if necessary. Ironically, all they need is a mirror to see close mindedness.
It’s like you were reading the draft for my post today!
I like to be fugal in things that don’t matter so I can spend money on things I like. When I got into bicycle racing with my kids, we spent some big money. I bought a $5,600 mountain bike and a $4,500 road bike. I spend high on my kids bikes as well. We had fun and I still ride those bikes 9 years later. There are now 15 bicycles in my garage that are used by the four of us. We each need a bike for road riding and another for off road riding. One of my kids got into single peed riding so you need that type of bike as well. Velodrome riding requires another type of bike, but since we don’t live near the velodrome, we rent that bike on site. We have also sold some bikes along the way as the kids grew out of them. There have also been a few of them stolen. My wife and I like to ride a tandem as well. People would call me fugal, for the most part, like when I drive a car for 20 years, but not when it comes to bike riding.
LIfe is short, go ride your bike!
Dr. Cory S. Fawcett
Prescription for Financial Success
Sage advice! Good for the heart also!
It’s so hard sometimes to switch gears. I know personally, I just HATE spending money, but sometimes you need to do something to make you feel good. I think a major part of the struggle of frugality and eventual FI is finding that “sweet spot”, where you don’t blow money on ridiculous “things”, but you still get to satisfy your material desires.
In a perfect world, we wouldn’t have a desire for things, and all of our money would be earmarked for the purpose of investing. However, I think everyone, even the most frugal of us, wants a reminder that we’ve done well for ourselves every now and then.
I’m a watch guy, for example. My wife watched me drool over luxury watches for years, all while refusing to do anything but sock my money away. Finally, on my 30th birthday, she FORCED me to allow myself a birthday gift — a brand new Heuer 01 Skeleton. While it made me squirm initially, I must say I love looking down at my shiny watch every day. Is it silly? Yeah. Unnecessary? Most definitely. But it makes me feel good, and that has to be ok sometimes.
You know. This comment is perfect. The watch brings you joy. Weeks, moths, years later you will look down at it and it will bring you pleasure. Totally worth it. I think the financial independence community is large enough for all the varying view points.
Like any community there are social norms that are biases. Work isn’t a four letter word. Ah, okay. It is a four-letter word, but you know what I mean. Working after you reach financial independence is a personal choice no one else has a right to chastise you for.
I don’t follow (or write for) the FI community to force people to my way of thinking. I’m looking for ideas. I take what resonates and leave the rest.
It isn’t close minded of Warren Buffett to say he only buys stocks at a bargain price. It isn’t close minded if the FI community says debt is bad and saving more is good. It only becomes close minded when an obvious falsehood is adhered to.
Judgmentalism is a far more insidious cancer. If we become judgmental of others in the community over something that offends us we are the problem.
Having a closed mind on some issues isn’t all bad. I’m closed minded about cheating on my wife and she appreciates that. It isn’t open minded behavior to cheat on my wife; it’s deceitful.
Hey Keith, thanks for stopping by.
I agree, judgmentalism is the issue. Per your example, it isn’t close minded for Warren Buffet to say that he only buys stocks at a bargain price. But it would be to criticize investors who buy stocks at an average price, hold for years, and profit from appreciation. Or it would be to criticize people who don’t buy stock at all but get great returns from real estate.
“Cheating” and “deceit” are negative by definition. Most of us are close minded to negativity and dishonesty.
Great post, Doc G. I’m also a fairly young blogger (time blogging, not age) who also has a love-hate (OK, not hate) relationship with the community. I love the concept of frugality, managing expenses and the like. But when it moves to obsession over every little expense, I take exception. Sacrifice is one thing. Obsession is quite another. Self-denial for the sake of FI can be more costly, not in terms of money, but in living life to its fullest. There is a balance I think we all strive to find. There is room for everyone’s views and methods.
Thanks for bringing that to our attention.
I agree, self denial can be damaging. The key, as you say, is in the balance.
I really enjoyed this piece. I often feel like I do not fit into the physician financial literacy community. I am not especially frugal (maybe more than my partners, but nothing close to what I see in the online community), I still work even though the math says that I do not have to work, I overindulge my children, I prefer to drive late model cars, I am not proficient at travel hacking, I buy investments that are not plain vanilla index funds, I have too much in cash, etc.
I have learned that there are times I just have to turn off the chatter and listen to my own voice.
A friend told me to go through medical school with blinders. Maybe the same applies here.
I am still waiting for a eulogy to state, “He died with the perfect amount of money.”
May we all have found perfect, at least once, along the way.
Thank you for the great read.
Yep. I suspect many of us will overshoot!